Collaboration is Key in Consensual Non-Monogamy
Summary
Pamela Duff shares insights on how she’s helped clients through navigating consensual non-monogamy with choice theory and existentialism.
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In this episode, you’ll learn about:
The benefits of opening your relationship
How to communicate difficult feelings and addressing challenges like people-pleasing behavior
What makes an open relationship healthy vs. toxic?
What happens when one person wants to open up and the other wants to stay monogamous?
How to create shared meaning and personal growth when opening your relationship
Pamela Duff is a Registered Mental Health Counseling Intern with the State of Florida. She provides both individual and couples counseling sessions for people engaging (or thinking about engaging!) in consensual non-monogamy.
Resources from this episode
Noteworthy quotes from this episode:
“[ENM] does not have to be any kind of way as long as all members involved feel safe and like they are being respected in the relationships.”
“[Partners demonstrating people-pleasing] may be quieter or they're going to protest slightly but they back down. So it's very much like being pulled along is how I would describe it. That doesn't mean they're being coerced necessarily or not wanting it, but having that lack of differentiation of identifying really what their own needs, values, and feelings are and actually verbalizing them is what I notice.”
Connect with Pamela Duff
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pameladuffrcc/
Email: pamela@redcouchtalks.com
Website: https://redcouchtalks.com/
https://www.facebook.com/pameladuffrcc/
Connect with Paige Bond
Instagram: @paigebondcoaching
Facebook: @paigebondcoaching
Website: www.paigebond.com
Paige Bond hosts the Stubborn Love podcast, is a Licensed Marriage Therapist, and is a Polyamory Relationship Coach. Her mission is to help people-pleasing millennials navigate non-monogamy so they can tame their jealousy and love with ease. Her own journey from feeling lonely, insecure, and jealous to feeling empowered and reassured is what fuels her passion to help other people-pleasers to conquer jealousy and embrace love.
Free Jealousy Workbook:
http://www.paigebond.com/calm-the-chaos-jealousy-workbook-download
Free People Pleasing Workbook:
https://www.paigebond.com/people-pleasing-workbook
Disclaimer: This podcast and communication through our email are not meant to serve as professional advice or therapy. If you are in need of mental health support, you are encouraged to connect with a licensed mental health professional to receive the support needed.
Mental Health Resources:National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255SAMHSA’s National Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357)Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741 for free, 24/7 crisis counseling.
Intro music by Coma-Media on pixabay.com
Transcript
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
All right listeners. Welcome back to another episode of Stubborn Love. We are just on a roll here talking about consensual, no, monogamy. So we have another guest today. Her name is Pamela Duff and she's actually a local therapist I found and I reached out to her because she's only one of few therapists that I've seen who actually states on their website that they specifically work with consensually non monogamous relationships.
So I thought she would be super cool to talk to. I've already chatted to her. You're gonna love her. I love chatting with her. So, Pamela, thank you so much for being on the show today. Before we dive into just the whole world of open relationships and stuff. Can you give the listeners a little bit more about you and your journey to how you got to where you are today?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Yes. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So I decided to become a therapist when I was a teenager and I started learning about psychology in school. I didn't have the full idea that I would end up in therapy at first. Actually, I thought I was going to go into neuroscience and put people into brain scanners and just not like I had no idea that I would end up in this part of the field.
But as I was going through my training in university, I was working in labs full time and I decided I really missed the in-person element with just talking to anyone because I was chugging away at spreadsheets pretty much all day long. So I was like, oh, this is not gonna be the career for me. I need that face to face contact. I want to help people in real time directly and not be doing like the side work. So I switched tracks. I went to grad school for mental health counseling. And then I
guess after I got my degree, I, I decided that I wanted to work in addiction primarily. So I was working at an outpatient methadone clinic right after grad school. And I really enjoyed working there. But I got kind of tired of working for someone else and being in a system that was kind of underfunded and frankly,
like, AAA little sad most of the time. And I decided I wanted to do my own thing and I ended up actually opening a private practice with the help of fellow therapists in the area.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah, that's so funny because you and I kind of share some of like similarities in our journey. Like after grad school, I also ended up at a methadone clinic and. Oh, really? Yeah, I had no idea. I guess we didn't chat about that last time we talked. But I wonder if it was the same one too. And, yeah, I, I too was, like, all right. I, I am tired of working for somebody else. I want to be a little bit more in control of my schedule.
I want to be in control of who I get to see and help things that I'm passionate about because that's actually going to make me a better therapist if I'm super passionate about like the certain population. And so I think you and I had that same drive around that. And so now that you're in your own practice, what, what are the main populations you see?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
So the main populations I see right now, I would say I mostly see college age students. That would be the majority of my clients. And then I see couples who are in consensual, non anonymous relationships. And I, those are the only couples that I see. I don't really do work outside of that realm. So that is my passion when it comes to relationship therapy.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. And we kind of talked a little bit last time off camera about how, you know, those were the only couples that you see. Can you tell listeners kind of how you landed on being able to help non monogamous relationships in a sense of like, did, did you even have any education on grad school with that? Because I know for me when I was in grad school, we had a whole human sexuality class, but no monogamy wasn't really even talked about.
So for me, I just kind of stumbled upon it. And I'm curious, like what your journey was to be able to like even know if it existed. Like, did you have anything ahead of time? So how did you specialize?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
So, definitely the first understanding of it was in my human sexuality class. I actually got really lucky, had a fantastic professor and she covered just so much ground with like just the different terms that are involved, what couples in those relationships often face and we have like a whole little segment on it. So it, it was pretty decent training.
And then from there, I would say a lot of it was just my personal journey. So I was married when I got into grad school and we ended up entering into an ethically non monogamous relationship. And, and when I did that, I started reading anything I could get my hands on about it. So I read a lot of Esther Perrell. I was listening to a lot of different podcasts about ethical non monogamy and just did a lot of outside work for my own purposes.
But then I kind of started to realize while that was happening that it was a serious need in the community that this was not, this was not something that co marriage therapists in the area were really addressing at all. And if they were, it was from a very moralistic, negative kind of high ground. And I heard that consistently from couples over and over again and other people in the community that they would go to a therapist and they just felt like they either had to explain
themselves 3/4 of a time because there was like a misunderstanding in the different like terms used or there was judgment there and there's never a room for judgment in the therapy room.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. And I'll kind of throw in the third alternative that probably a lot of clients experience is that maybe the therapist isn't judgmental, however, maybe they're also not educated. So they're doing their best to help you along that journey. And that was kind of my experience when, you know, that was something in my life that I was exploring of like, I didn't feel judged by my therapist. But knowing me in my whole background, I just kind of had this like, ingrained shame
disgrace, like even trying to bring up that topic for myself. And look, even though like that wasn't something that my therapist specialized in, they were still very helpful. So if you can find an open-minded therapist, I think that would like be at least the first step, but like, preferably if you can find someone who's knowledgeable and who, like, outwardly affirms consensual. No monogamy. I think that's going to be, you know, someone's best bet for help.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Absolutely. Especially if, yeah, exactly. Like you said, if the one member of the couple or both members of the couple who are coming into the room are newer to the realm of CNM. It's very helpful to have someone who kind of is taking the reins of the conversation and like can ask you questions and isn't really like leaning back as much to let you talk. Like they're kind of like guiding you more.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah, I like that because when you're bringing up a topic, like opening your relationship, if you have a therapist who's very nondirective and who is more of the just listener and reflector, I don't think a lot of work and like is gonna get done in those types of sessions because it's just reflection. You're not really getting to the meat and potatoes of like talking about boundaries, talking about you know, time spent and, and things like that. So in your experience, like, what
would you say would be because as you said in your own way of trying to navigate this, you like dived into books and was trying to like, read anything you could get your hands on. So if you're seeing a client and they're kind of in that first steps of their own journey of even even just thinking about opening the relationship, maybe not even diving into it quite yet. What would you recommend as their first steps to like open successfully or learn about it successfully?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Well, I would definitely recommend doing research because there, there are so many different ways to open a relationship and to have a a consensual, like to have consensual. No monogamy be a part of your relationship and it really looks different for every couple but having an idea of the different frameworks going in can kind of help you guide. OK. What, what could potentially feel good to me versus what could be a red flag to me or just having like some basis and understanding of
what, what your options are before you go in thinking that it has to be one kind of way. It does not have to be any kind of way as long as both members or, you know, all members involved feel safe and like they are being respected in the relationships.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
I really love that you bring that up because, you know, when, when you talk about like what may be a red flag for someone? Maybe not and like what came in my head as you said that I'll see a lot of clients who are either on one side of the spectrum or not where they're really comfortable with swinging. But if you get an emotional attachment, that's something that, you know, is outside of their boundaries. And that they're not ok with, and then on the other side of the spectrum you'll get
someone who wants to explore polyamory and have those deep meaningful relationships. But don't want those, swinging experiences or one nightstands or open relationships. They want kitchen table polyamory. So, I, I love that. You bring that up about how it's really important to identify. Ok. What kind of structure do you want? What's going to be good for you?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Exactly. Like, it's just having that basis and knowing, you know, what you can do, it doesn't have to be what you've seen on TV, or what you've heard from like a friend randomly in a conversation. It can, it can really be your own thing and getting very in touch with what you were trying to get from CNM relationships or what you and your partners are trying to get from the CNM
relationship is one of the most important steps in the beginning. Why are we doing this? What is the purpose here and what is this going to add to my life and to our relationships?
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yes, I love that. You said, what's it going to add to my life? Because especially lately I've had quite a few clients struggling with the idea of, opening up where the other partner is really excited about it. But the other one is just like having a hard time with that idea. And so I posed the challenge to them. Ok, what if you sat down and thought about all the benefits that you're gonna get by opening your relationship or by seeing your partner, have, you know, this joy from another
person. And honestly, they were able to think of some things and add that to a list. It was amazing. So I think that is super important to like touch on, you know, ok, what is this gonna do for us? Like, don't, don't think about just the bad, don't think about, you know, all the jealousy and crying nights, like there's actually going to be a lot of just joy that you'll experience too.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Absolutely. And if this is an important relationship to you and a relationship that you want to continue to have, like hopefully what you're doing, what you're deciding to do is going to bring you closer, not drive you further apart. And if you have guidance from a therapist or even just very like high levels of communication between the couple, like it is definitely something where there needs to be and there needs to be a lot of emotional intelligence involved.
And that's, that can be something that is either like present in the people already or something that is learned in counseling. There needs to be that level of communication, emotional intelligence in order to do this because it is a more difficult relationship style to hold whenever you add more people into a situation.
Now, we've got a lot more like just a lot more energy in a relationship to manage, not with, it's not just the two of us anymore. We're looking at several different factors. So there needs to be a lot of communication around that.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. So you mentioned the importance of emotional intelligence. Can you go into that a little bit of for listeners about what is emotional intelligence first off.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
So emotional and challenge isn't as I understand it. It's just, it's our awareness of our own thoughts and feelings, it's our awareness of other people's thoughts and feelings and how those two things interact.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Hm. Ok. Yeah, I see a lot of clients struggling with that oftentimes they'll be like easy to name like the jealousy or the anger or, or even naming that for their partners. But when they think about like the deep rooted emotions, you know, despair, even talking about like different fears while exploring CNM. that's really hard for them to actually identify and name. Do you find that also common in your work?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Absolutely. It's like the, it's almost as if the, the things that come into the session at first are very surface level as far as the emotions are and they are like, it's like an iceberg of emotions that are actually going on. Like they're, they might come in with one complaint that's very small or very big, but actually, it's a completely different meaning behind what is being voiced to their partner.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is a really good segue talking about because you and I share a lot of clientele where we see that there's kind of this people pleaser aspect, often times in relationship dynamics like this. And so I think this is a great way to talk about how there's sometimes one partner in a relationship who doesn't really, I, identify like the actual, like, need that is missing or maybe they're afraid to actually verbalize that need.
So, I see you shaking your head and talking about like, yeah, I see this two page. So can you kind of talk about what, what you've seen in your experience? Like what that looks like in the therapy room and how, you know that like they're kind of like in some sort of category of people pleasing?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Yes. So how would I describe it in the therapy room? I would say the way it comes up in a conversation between the couple sitting in front of me is often the person who is demonstrating those people pleasing behaviors often takes a back seat to the conversation and can be more deferential to their partner. So their partner might be driving all the, these are gonna be the benefits, these are going to be like the things that we're doing.
Like they've done the research, they're thinking about it. And a lot of the times the person who's a little more hesitant towards, CNM is going to just be quieter or they're going to protest slightly but they, they back down. So it's, it's very much like being pulled along is how I would describe it. It looks like someone's being pulled along.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. Yeah. And that's not to say that while they are being pulled along, that doesn't mean they're being coerced necessarily. That doesn't mean that they're, not wanting and, and sometimes it is the case that they're not wanting and just not saying that they're wanting to explore this.
But the being pulled along is I think at the root of it, having that lack of differentiation of identifying really what their own needs, values and feelings are and actually verbalizing them is what I notice.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, because I mean, then this is something like from my theoretical orientation that I like to try and like push a lot into my sessions. It's just empowerment for both part, for both people in the room that you chose to be in this relationship, you chose this partner and now you are choosing this next step. So you've got to put like a full force behind that even if you feel kind of shaky about it, there is this piece of it where you really have to evaluate, is this
something that I am capable of doing and that I want to do for yourself without your partner's influence because especially when people are opening up their relationship after being monogamous for a really long time. That is an important evaluation to go through. That's a very different process than folks who are starting out where they've always been talking about CNM.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. Yeah. what would you say? man, I'll have to cut that out. What is up with my voice. so I'll, I'll kind of go into talking about like the existentialism and choice theory. So, Pam, we've talked about before off camera, how like you get to use something called choice theory and existentialism with non monogamous clients. Can you kind of explain what choice theory is and what existential theory is and, and like why that's so beneficial for them?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Sure. So choice theory is just, it's the foundation of it is that every person has control over their lives and their actions only. And when you try to extend that control into other people's lane or decision making, you are going to come up with a lot of pain and suffering because we only have control of our own actions. Now, in relationships, there's a lot of compromising and there's a lot of coming to the table and debating like these elements of control where you would normally
have complete freedom. So it's important to like recognize that this is the foundation of any human condition is that we all only have control over ourselves. If we make the choice to get into a relationship with another person. We are giving up some of that power in order to have this thing that we have between us.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Hm. Wow. What a concept and, and it, it sounds like originally or usually choice theory is done in individual therapy, but you're able to like, really expand it and apply it to working with couples or multiple partners. And in a way where it's still grounds in their own control, they just have to be collaborative about what choices they make.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Absolutely. Absolutely. And recognize that they always have the choice that they don't have to be a part of this relationship if they don't want to, but they continue to show up to it. So all the blaming all the criticism, all of the, what have you about what's going on with the partner? Hey, at, at the end of the day you chose to be here, this was your partner that you picked.
Pamela Duff, Therapist, Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
So there has to be responsibility accepted in that choice.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
And I imagine that's kind of hard for people to hear, like, taking responsibility for their own choices because we don't like to or I'll just speak for, for myself. I don't like to. I kind of like get that pouty look or that pow, like, you know, when you're a kid it's like, hm, I know I made the wrong choice but like, kind of like that. I wonder if you see that also when they're realizing. Oh, crap. Yeah, I did make this decision.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's one of the toughest pills to swallow, I think as a person in this world is that we have control over our actions and because we have that control, we have a huge amount of responsibility towards ourselves and others to just, you know, be, be good people.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So, going into talking about like the other, type of theory that you use in your therapy, existentialism, can you kind of give an overview of what existentialism is and how you get to use it with clients?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Sure. So existentialist theory, it, it just like in the philosophical idea is kind of hard to describe. So it's even more difficult to describe in the context of therapy, but it's more of an approach towards conversation. So it's deeply rooted in the idea that each person has their own unique meaning behind the experiences going on in their lives.
So what it means to be me is very different from what it means to be you. And each of our experiences that happen to us can be encoded completely differently just depending on where we've come from and our backgrounds, we get to decide the meaning behind the events in our lives and it's important to examine that meaning.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. So when you think about it, OK, let's say you have a couple come to you and they said, all right, we wanted to start opening up our relationship and you're applying the concept of existentialism is that like, essentially trying to find what the like meaning or purpose is for like their reasons for opening up.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Yes. Absolutely. And to create a shared meaning because yes, we all have our own like meanings and like perceptions of our experiences. But when we enter into a relationship, we are creating shared meaning, shared purpose in our lives. So coming together to figure out what that will be is very important, I think for couples in C and M relationships.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. Very cool. I, I think that all therapists should use these things. This sounds like very effective in helping your clients. And I imagine they respond very well to it. kind of shifting gears here like going back to maybe thinking about people who are already in an open relationship or how they were approaching it. Something that is kind of I don't know in the airwaves or whatever in, in, on social media that you see, like, you'll notice that there are some toxic ways to
present in any type of non monogamous agreement. And then there are some very healthy ways to present and I wonder if we can kind of go over like, maybe red flags or something that people could notice when it's kind of bordering on that unhealthy type of actions behavior when being in a consensually non monogamous relationship. Can we talk about that?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Yeah. Absolutely. So, like already being in the relationship, not the actual startup piece.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. We'll talk about people who are already in it. They're in the throes of it.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Ok. So, some red flags in those relationships.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. How would someone know, let's say a listener is like, oh, man. Yeah, this is really good. Let's, let's talk about it and see if, like, how I'm doing this is healthy or how my partner is doing this is healthy. Could, could we talk about like some specific, maybe like mirrored actions that would be a healthy version versus like what could be bordering on unhealthy or toxic.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
One of those behaviors. And I'm trying to think of how to put it into more specific terms. But I would say if there is a power dynamic that is arising between the couple because of the choice to open up the relationship.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. OK. I think I can, I think I can do that power dynamic. No, I like that. So when you say power dynamic, I'm wondering if you're saying if this is playing out if instead of it being that choice theory where it's really collaborative and existentialism where you create a shared meaning, it's really more of a lopsided and one person is kind of taking the reins, taking control, doing what they want without the input or even thought of the other partner.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Exactly. Hm. Yeah, it's a lot of here are a lot of my needs, my needs, my needs, not our relationship or our relationships. It's, it's me, me, me, me, me a lot of the time.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Let's, let's throw out some examples of what that could look like. So, one for me that's coming to mind is like, let's say they, they finally, like, already started exploring an open relationship. and, and one person said that their, you know, boundary is OK, let's use protection. Make sure you have condoms, make sure that maybe even get an ST I screening from the person that you're interested in and the other person or partner had agreed to that.
However, they're super excited about this other person they're going on a date with and they willingly do not use protection, they willingly do not even ask for any ST I screening. I'm kind of thinking like that would be a situation of like a blatant power dynamic of like, OK, I'm going to ignore all of the boundaries that we set up together and agree to. Yeah, that would be an example.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Absolutely. Because it just, it demonstrates a lack of respect for your partner or your partners that you have taken it upon yourself to make a unilateral decision about something that involves multiple people.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Oh, unilateral decision. OK. Yeah, that, that's a, a big one. I, I like that's the word. So when we're thinking about unilateral decisions going into that more toxic type of behavior. Can you think of any other situations that you've seen clients encounter where it's unilateral disrespectful to already agreed upon boundaries?
Or even, maybe if they're not even agreed upon boundaries yet that it's conversation about it, but nothing was set in stone and maybe it's a loophole or something that they kind of got around. Can you think of any other power dynamic, unilateral decisions that you've seen?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Yeah, you said the word loophole and that like brought up a lot of like different types of things. I would say that like, maybe a specific one, if there is some sort of like, some sort of insistence from one partner that it has to be this other person that I am opening up my relationship with. So a very specific and you'll see this sometimes with people who have affairs and then they try to open the relationship on the back end and the other partner is very like, they might be open to
consensual, non monogamy, but they are not open to this person specifically. And then their partner is like, no, I only want to open the relationship so I can have this other person involved in my life. I've seen that a few times actually.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. Yeah. I, I imagine that's probably a really frequent situation that people encounter because, I mean, they're having an affair for a reason or continuing an affair for a reason, maybe they actually like the person. and, and would like to sustain that kind of relationship. But you're saying, on the, the other hand, the hurt partner who was not engaging in the affair, that's kind of their boundary where they don't want to have that third party involved in their
relationship. But they're still open to the idea of possible different partners. But you're saying when the affair partner who, who had the affair is really insistent on keeping that partner that was part of the infidelity, that kind of gets a little bit tricky about the insistence that the insistence of it.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Because what it suggests is that again, like that collaboration is lost. It's almost as if another relationship is being put over the relationship that we are discussing the relationship at hand. There is now another relationship that is taking precedence and that would be unhealthy in, in a relationship where the couple has started out as monogamous or even if they're in a polly type of relationship.
But I think it comes back to the idea of like hierarchical polyamory. And if you have established that there is a primary couple or a primary relationship, if you, if there starts to be like that be, yeah, that imbalance. Exactly. It, it can really get to an unhealthy space very quickly.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
I am thinking like a mirrored version of this, of like a situation and, and maybe infidelity is not part of it, but, so you have a couple, they're saying? All right, let's open our relationship, baby. And one partner is like, but don't sleep with that person. you can have anybody you want in the world.
and, and it's not out of an affair or anything. Right. But don't sleep with that person. W what do you, what do you say to that as a therapist or, or what meaning do we make of that? You know, with that person saying? All right, have anyone you want? Except for XYZ.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Well, that's where you really need to take a lens to again. What it, what would it mean for you if your partner were to sleep with or have a relationship with person? Because it's not just, it, it's never just, well, I just don't like them. No, no, no. Like there is some, there is some deeper meaning behind your resistance to this particular individual and that needs to be discussed and explored in the therapy room.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
I, I usually see the commonality with when they're saying, ok, not this person. There's some sort of insecurity in the person who's verbalizing it that they, they see the other person as better than them in some way and they're feeling threatened and maybe the fear is, oh, my gosh. If they finally sleep with that person, they'll give my partner everything they've always wanted and then they'll leave me and then like that spiral happens. Right.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Absolutely. There's some understanding in there and yet it's exactly like you said, it usually is highlighting a very specific insecurity for the person who's voicing that request. Yeah.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Ok. So it would be really helpful to do a little bit of your own internal work highlight and see maybe what feels threatening about that situation about that person and talk about it with your partner and talk about it with your therapist and see if there can be any kind of movement in there.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Absolutely. Because if you don't, if you don't explore that deeper meaning and if you keep that in at all, by the way, like it's healthy to voice these concerns. Absolutely. The unhealthiness comes from like no budging, no room for like communication around the issue. This is just my boundary and I'm leaving it there and we're, you know, we're never talking about it again. No, that's not how that's not a healthy way to address these types of things.
if you aren't voicing them or if you are just making that boundary around this one person and leaving it there, you're robbing your partner of the chance to one understand you better. And two actually provide comfort to you about an underlying insecurity that's only being highlighted by this person.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
I'm like cheering right now as a cheerleader for you, as you're saying this, like that is the exact reason on why it's so important to talk about these things and be open with this. I love how you said if the person is open with these insecurities that it actually benefits them and they can find comfort, being able to verbalize it like, wow, mind blown. I hope if you're a listener and you're struggling with insecurity and you're kind of unsure, like whether it would be helpful to
share with your partner or not. Let's, let's talk about that. Let's do a little reflection on that. So now that we've talked about some unhealthy types of behaviors, can you highlight what are some tips to make sure that people get to have an, a healthy open relationship in an ethical no monogamous agreement.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
So I would say the first thing is a, it's a shared meaning, a shared understanding of what this is doing for us as individuals and as a couple. And it's important to have reasons in both of those camps. So there is a shared meaning of what this is adding to our lives and that is something that we had discussed on, on the relationship front and the individual front so that, you know, like, OK, well, this is kind of like our banner as to why we are doing this and like how we're going to conduct
ourselves moving forward is going to be in service of this greater meaning or this goal or however you wanna frame it. Starting from that foundation, I think is very healthy is establishing. OK, this isn't just something we're doing. Willy nilly. This isn't something we're just, you know, doing to save our relationship. This is something that we're doing so that, we are bringing each other closer. We are adding like, you know, enrichment into our lives in some way.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
All right. I'm gonna go or reverse because you said something about how it's important to not do this, to save a relationship. And I kind of want to touch on that for a little bit because that's something that, I've seen a lot in my practice and I'm sure you've also seen that too where it's like, all right, you know, I, I better do this or else my partner's going to leave me or they're going to break up with me or, you know, they'll go
out and cheat on me if I don't open the relationship. So, can we, like, talk about, what you've seen, you know, the downsides of doing this, like for somebody else like that?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Yeah. Absolutely. So, I mean, in any relationship where you are trying to use something outside of the relationship itself to save a connection. So that can be ethical nono, that could be having a child that can be moving to a different state. Any, like, outside event that you are trying to make the, the, at the saving grace of a relationship that is dying.
It is only going to add more pressure and more intensity into something that is already struggling. Big red flag, but absolutely, like just giant massive red flag. I forgot the original question. I was just so caught up on that idea of.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Well, yeah. No, I'm really glad you highlighted that because when you're essentially doing something to save the relationship, you're kind of kicking the can down the road, right? You may like, hold off of a breakup or a divorce a little bit longer. But as you said, like it gets more intense, you're gonna have a whole lot more emotions involved. You're probably gonna be a lot more sad or depressed, anxious maybe because you don't know what's going to happen and you're hoping that
this is your saving grace to the relationship. So thank you for highlighting that because I think that's really important. Before that, before I kind of got us off track here, we were talking about any other healthy tips. So do you have any other suggestions for how to make sure that we're healthy while opening up?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Sure. I think that it's very important to whenever you're making decisions in ac and M relationship and I, I'm sorry, I keep using like both terms interchangeably. But yeah, so whenever you're making decisions in ac and M relationship, you are making those decisions from a basis of us instead of me. So you are looking, is this mutually beneficial? Am I looking at everybody's safety.
Am I taking into account consent on all sides? It's a, it's a less, it's a more selfless way of making decisions because it, when you start having multiple people in a relationship again, that is adding more relationship dynamics and we need to be thinking more communal than individualistic when we're making our choices now.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. Yeah. When you start adding more people, you're not only like adding to the problem, Go back to math school, you're like multiplying the possibilities of things going wrong, but you're also multiplying possibilities of things going right too. We just have to take a different approach to make sure that happens.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Yes. Yes, exactly. Because it and so I I love what you just said about like multiplying it is multiplying, it's not just adding because it's think about the amount of things that go right between a couple, the beautiful moments, the exciting times you can have that now with more people in your life, right? And then think about all the negative things that can go down between a couple, all the fights, all the very nuanced situations that arise between two people.
Now we have that with multiple individuals and then between other relation. I'm trying to think of how to explain this. Like it's, it's not just between the original two people or like the one couple, it's now three people involved. So there are problems that could go on in each version of the relationship.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah. It's the ripple effect. Everybody gets affected. It's not just like one core set of people now.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Exactly.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
So, as, as a question, and, and as someone who, like both of us work with these types of relationships, do you think it's sustainable to have an open relationship to be ethically? No. Non monogamous, I think.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Yeah, I absolutely do. I've seen, and I don't think my answer would have always been yes to that. But working with these couples, especially the couples who have really put in the work to understand themselves as individuals, understand themselves as a couple and they're just like why they are doing what they are doing and what it is bringing to their life, seeing, seeing those couples get closer and closer together over the span of opening their
relationship. Like I'm completely a believer. I've seen it bring like just such beautiful conversations that they would have never had, had they opened up their relationship.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yes. I think that's one of the most exciting parts for me too is just getting to see all of the possibilities and depths of their relationship that they had never even thought of going to in just a non monogamous dynamic. So I'm, I'm glad you also get like we, we, we share that joy in being able to see those things. Yeah. As we kind of widen down here, I'm wondering if there's any other piece, that you would like to say to listeners who are either thinking about opening up or who are
maybe even struggling while opening up their relationship. Is there anything else that you want them to know that could be helpful or calming or just whatever you wanna say?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Watch out for those limiting beliefs that you are putting on yourself and on your relationship. It doesn't have to be any particular thing as long as both or all partners involved agree as to what you are doing moving forward. You can really make this relationship your own, whatever the rules are, the boundaries are how this exists in your relationship is 100% up to the people involved. So don't try not to limit yourself when you go into this conversation. Keep an open mind.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Yeah, super cool. Great advice and I, I think that is applicable to so many different situations of dynamics, you know, even outside of ethical, no monogamy. So, just making sure that you're not like putting this kind of almost self self sabotaging onto a situation for yourself, right? So I love that being open, being open minded.
So thank you for having this conversation with me today. I've enjoyed just getting to know a little bit about your approach and your ideas around ethical. No monogamy. If people want to find you get to know you or see where you hang out, where can people find you?
Pamela Duff, Therapist
They can find me on my website red couch talks dot com or on the psychology today listing for Orlando for Winter Park Therapist.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Love it. Awesome. So, I'll make sure to have those links in the show notes for people if they would just want to come find you and talk to you or even work with you. And thank you again so much for this conversation.
Pamela Duff, Therapist
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Paige Bond, Open Marriage Expert
Of course. All right listeners until next time.
