Navigating Sleep in Non-Monogamous Relationships

Show Notes

Struggling to snooze in your open relationship? Dive into how sleep and non-monogamy collide in this chat with therapist and sleep expert, Savannah Hipes. Get ready for sleep tips that'll make you want to dream on!

Key takeaways from the episode:

• Discover how your sleep patterns might be affecting your romantic life and what you can do about it

• Learn how to tackle nightmares that make your sleep less than optimal

• Identify the best relaxation techniques that can transform your sleep quality

• Learn how to prioritize rest without compromising your intimate life

Savannah Hipes is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Behavioral Sleep Medicine provider. She uses evidence-based treatments to equip clients with specific tools for changing their sleep patterns. She helps clients try unique strategies that teach their brain and body how to sleep again. Whether it’s Insomnia or persistent Nightmares, she’s there to help retrain your mind and body so you can get the rest you deserve.

Noteworthy quotes from this episode:

[36:15] "Is it [anxiety] worse when you're tired? If it is, then maybe sleep should be something that we prioritize as a method of helping you work through your anxieties and your difficult thoughts.."

[38:22] “Testosterone is usually released when you first go to sleep, that's when it kind of primarily is being released and it hits a peak when you hit your first REM cycle of sleep… So if you're delaying that sleep by multiple hours, you're really delaying that testosterone release and over time, it actually just goes down.”

Connect with Savannah

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/savannahhipeslcsw

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/savannahhipeslcsw/

Website - https://www.savannahhipeslcsw.com/

Connect with Paige

Instagram: @paigebondcoaching

Facebook: @paigebondcoaching

Website: www.paigebond.com

Paige Bond hosts the Stubborn Love podcast, is a Licensed Marriage Therapist, and is a Polyamory Relationship Coach. Her mission is to help people-pleasing millennials navigate non-monogamy so they can tame their jealousy and love with ease. Her own journey from feeling lonely, insecure, and jealous to feeling empowered and reassured is what fuels her passion to help other people-pleasers to conquer jealousy and embrace love.

Free Jealousy Workbook: 

⁠⁠http://www.paigebond.com/calm-the-chaos-jealousy-workbook-download⁠⁠

Free People Pleasing Workbook: 

⁠⁠https://www.paigebond.com/people-pleasing-workbook⁠⁠

Disclaimer: This podcast and communication through our email are not meant to serve as professional advice or therapy. If you are in need of mental health support, you are encouraged to connect with a licensed mental health professional to receive the support needed.

Mental Health Resources:National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255SAMHSA’s National Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357)Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741 for free, 24/7 crisis counseling.
Intro music by Coma-Media on ⁠⁠pixabay.com⁠

Transcript

(generated by AI - please excuse errors)

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Welcome back to another episode of Stubborn Love. I'm your host, Paige Bond. And today we have a guest to help us talk about sleep and non monogamy. I think this is an issue that doesn't get really touched on at all. You know, I think if I type sleep and no monogamy into Google or like nightmares, I don't think there's much of a result that

shows up. So I'm so grateful to be joined by our expert Savannah Hypes who is an L CS w and specializes in sleep and eating disorders without further ado before we dive into our big topic today, Savannah. Can you introduce yourself to the audience and just tell them about your journey on how you got to this place of sleep and eating disorder specialization.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for having me. I'm always pumped to talk about this. I'm kind of like an information nerd a bit. I don't know if you've noticed in our relationship so far, but I just really, really get excited about sharing information with people. Well, before I get ahead of myself, I'm Savannah. I am a therapist here in Orlando, Florida.

So I see clients in person in Winter Park and then I also see people virtually throughout Florida and New York. And I really focus on helping like highly driven and sleep deprived professionals. That's kinda like the niche that's, that's where I like to hit. And oftentimes those professionals who have sleep disorders like insomnia often have eating disorders as well.

which is really new in the research that's coming out right now that there's such a big link between those two and they really feed into each other. No pun intended. But yeah, so that's really where my passion lies. But I think how I got in into both of these areas is that, that like data driven part of me really longs for like statistical, like evidence of what works like just as a therapist, I think most therapists battle with the discomfort of, am I doing enough for my client?

Am I giving them the treatment that is the most up to date and the most effective? And that's always been a driver for me. So with sleep, I discovered I used to work at the VA and they do a lot of evidence-based treatments and they, they trained me in C BT for insomnia, which happens to be an extremely effective treatment. The, the rates of success are like 70 to 80% which is kind of wild in terms of success.

statistically with therapy with specific kind of treatments in, in terms of the research and it's been used for like decades and decades. So this isn't something that like has really changed much over time. Like they found what works, it's been working and it works in such a short amount of time. Like I, I see clients come in and then by the six sessions, they're like, all right, cool, like sleeping better than I have in decades. Let's go.

So it's just like it just gives my therapist heart life to know that I have something that not a lot of people know about and that is so effective that can just help them move past like years and years and years of suffering into the life they really wanna be living. So that's how I kinda got into, you know, both sleep and eating disorders is like the search for what is effective treatment and what is the best way that I can be of use to society?

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a very high need because I know as you say, you mainly work with like professionals struggling with sleep, but I beg to like differ like pretty much almost everyone on this planet has struggled with sleep if not at some point in their life, if they're not already right now. So you are in very high demand, I can imagine for helping people fix like such a big part.

Like sleep is, you know, if we get an eight hours every night, like we may supposed to be, that's a third of our life right there. So sounds like you can make a really big impact on something that is so needed. You said that you were trained in C BT for insomnia. Can you go into talking about like, what is that and what is the treatment look like?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Totally. Basically, I don't know if any of your listeners are familiar with C BT. It stands for cognitive behavioral therapy and it really focuses in on both behavioral techniques, helping people change specific behaviors that are affecting whatever struggle they're having. And additionally, specifically addressing thoughts that get in the way of them, like living the life they want to live.

So with C BT for insomnia. We're doing a lot of education on how sleep actually works because that's something that a, as simple as it is once you know, it, most people don't know it. And that's really unfortunate cause like so much sleep could be, I think cured if people just knew the basics of how sleep works. And I'll tell you a little bit about that too.

But so we do a lot of sleep education and then from that education you kind of like you as the client basically get it just pretty quick of like, oh, so if that's how it works, then these things blink, blink, blink, that I'm doing are really screwing it up. Like if I, if I just make these couple tweaks. Oh, I see how that would, like, immediately change things. So that's really what, what it is is we do the education, we look at the behaviors that are getting in the way of your sleep and then

we also address the thoughts that are getting in the way of your sleep and those are all things we can talk about here in a minute. I mean, do you want me to jump into, like, how, how sleep works? Would that be helpful for me to give a little bit?

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Yeah. Can you talk about how sleep works? Like, what is it supposed to do? How are we supposed to do it? Like, what's, I guess the most optimal way to be able to get sleep. You jump into that.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah. So what's fantastic is that our bodies and our brains already know how to sleep. Like, for the most part, unless there's a, something that happens that gets in the way of our sleep, we really don't have to do much to regulate it because our body does that for us. So it's regulated by two primary things. One is a circadian rhythm which many people have heard about.

That's like the 24 hour cycle that we all live on. That circadian rhythm determines the timing of our sleep. So our, if our brain knows what time it is and it knows where it's at in that 24 hour cycle, then it can tell our body at certain times of day, whether to be alert or whether to be sleepy and to get ready for bed. So that really, it just regulates the timing of everything and that circadian rhythm, this is the part that people are like, wait.

Really? That's amazing. that circadian rhythm is regulated by light intake, scheduled light intake. So specifically, there's a piece of our brain towards the back called the super Chiasma nucleus, which is a really fun thing to say. And I've practiced a lot to be able to say it appropriately, but I can imagine. Yeah. So that's where the circadian rhythm is housed in our brain and it connects via like a a nerve to our eyes and when our eyes take in daylight that shoots back to that

super charismatic nucleus and says it's morning time, it's daytime and the brain goes ok. Great. And it starts sending out an alerting signal to the rest of our body saying be alert, be awake. It's daytime like yay, we're moving and it does that all throughout the day. Like all the day long, the more light we take in, the more our brain feels confident that it's daytime and continues telling us to be awake and alert.

And then when we start not having that light anymore. So typically that would be in the evening time, a few hours after the sun goes down our brains, like, oh wait, we're ha we haven't gotten that light in a bit. It must be nighttime and it stops sending that alerting signal and we start to get sleepy. So some things can get in the way of that. Like when people work at home and they have their blinds drawn like I see you do behind you and those of us who like to be cave monsters and we really

enjoy like cuddling in the dark that can get in the way of our circadian rhythm because our brains like, wait, what side is it right now? I'm confused and it doesn't know when to tell us to be alert.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

And I can also imagine this would be a struggle for people on the second or third shift, like being overnight and having to work, having our eyes open when it's dark outside. Like, how, how the heck do they have a circadian rhythm and, and a good sleep schedule?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

It's rough. It's rough for them. That's a, that's a primary thing that I think we're trying to work on as sleep specialists is like, there's a lot of different ways that we try and help shift workers. but it's quite difficult and there's a lot of strategy in terms of the timing and the scheduling of their light intake, like we schedule them to go out in the sunlight at very specific time periods and like wear a hat and like dark sunglasses during certain other time periods to

manipulate what time their brain thinks it is. So it's, that's really cool. But yeah, it's, it's really powerful and that circadian rhythm is also served by and regulated by our, our regular like routine activities such as eating, like if we're eating three meals a day at regular intervals and that's consistent every day. It supports our brain knowing what time it is. Our brain's like, oh yeah, that's breakfast. That means it's morning time versus if we don't eat till like one

or 2 p.m. our brain's like, wait, is this breakfast? And then it, it just gets very and then it doesn't tell us to be sleepy until much later cause it's like, wait, but I, I'm confused what time it is. So things like social interactions, eating all of those routine activities, really support our sleep, which is why I often tell people actually what you do during the day has a bigger impact on your sleep than even what you do at night.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Wow. Ok. you're kind of blowing my mind right now because I'm like the worst at having a routine for my eating schedule. And some days I'll be like, starving when I wake up and I'll eat something, right in the morning and then other days it's like maybe one or two hours before I even put something in my body. So, are you saying, like, when that happens, my mind is like, confused. Hey, what time is it?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah. And like one day is not gonna throw you off. But if that's a pattern where you're, if it's so often that your brain doesn't know when to expect, you know, breakfast or when to expect certain activities, then it's not gonna know it's not gonna know when to tell you to be sleepy or to be alert.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Wow. Ok.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach, Savannah Hipes, LCSW

my poor body then you're like, oh, dang.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Yeah. And, and I, wonder, you know, throwing in. I know we're mainly talking about sleep on this episode. But since you do have that experience, you know, working with eating disorders, I'm wondering how the two might overlap.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

That's really, for me that's where the magic is too. Is that, that's very under researched, but just in the last couple of years, a lot of research is coming out. That's like, wait a minute, we knew that timed routine behaviors affect sleep. How did we never connect before that people with eating disorders have such like shitty sleep because their eating is so inconsistent. you wouldn't think the two are connected but they really are.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

So with that in mind, how could someone who is struggling with sleep and having a struggle with eating? Get back on track. You know, you said you mentioned routine is very important in sleep. So what would be maybe like a first step with disordered eating?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah, that's a great question. I think I often use this as a motivator for like scheduled eating with eating disorders because the eating disorder, brain really doesn't wanna do that. It's very scary to, to know that you're gonna be eating at certain times of day and to stick to that schedule. And everyone's eating disorder is very different. So this is kind of a generality that it's, you know, it's hard to make generalities, but for a lot of people knowing that you're gonna eat at

certain times rather than like delaying eating is very scary and it can help when IW when we get that education of like, wait a minute, this isn't like, let's pretend this is not about your eating disorder. Like, let's kind of forget about that for a minute. How much do you wanna sleep? Well, let's maybe focus on that and that can help with the motivation for creating a schedule and sticking to it.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Oh, I like that idea. So all of this is really great information. Is there anything that listeners should know as a basis before we move on to how this really is impacted when navigating non monogamy?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yes. So there are two more pieces about sleep. I wanna share that I think will be important in understanding how sleep plays a role with non monogamy. The, the first piece about sleep is the circadian rhythm. The second thing that regulates sleep is your sleep drive, which is basically an appetite for sleep. So if you've had a full night of sleep, you can imagine that you're like nice and full and you're not hungry for it anymore.

When you wake up in the morning, you're refreshed, you're rested and all throughout the day, pressure starts building up on your brain, the longer you're awake, the more your brain is telling you that you need sleep. So that builds up all throughout the day. And we want that we actually need that drive to get really high. We so that your brain is sufficiently tired and has sufficient amount of chemicals built up to make you fall asleep in the evening.

so that comes into play specifically. Well, I'll go into that now, only a second. So keep, keep that in mind just tidbit. I'll put there. Third thing I'll mention is arousal. So our arousal system and I'm not talking specifically about sexual arousal here, but I think that plays a part as well. I'm mainly talking about physiological and cognitive arousal.

This is a big part of our daily like safety mechanism. So the arousal system overrides both of those two other things that I mentioned that regulate sleep, like the sleep drive and the circadian rhythm, they do their thing, they work together, they're great, they're effective. The arousal system is designed to kind of be the emergency brake on those two other ones, if we are in danger and we need to stay awake to keep ourselves safe.

So, and I know that probably all of the trauma flags are going off in your head. Yeah. So yeah, there's a lot of underpinnings here with that too, but the, the arousal system says, no, no, no, stay awake, it's not safe. We need to, we need to look out, we need to be aware, whatever that's fantastically useful for us as humans. You know, if I'm a caveman that has to stay awake to protect my family a million years ago or whatever, that's really important for me that my arousal system tells

me to stay awake and it sufficiently keeps me awake. However, that's really useful in truly threatening moments. In other moments, our brain perceives that we're being threatened even if it's not a real physical threat that's happening right now. And for a lot of people that's anxiety, that's, they're having a lot of fears about things going on in their life, fears about the future, fears about the present.

I mean, I'm explicitly thinking if your partner is not with you at bedtime and they're with someone else and you're having that kind of jealousy come up and all those fears about is my partner gonna leave me? Do they love me enough? Are we stable and secure enough? Your brain perceives those thoughts as a true threat to you and your arousal system says, oh, it's a threat.

Let's stay awake because we have to protect ourselves. So like s sleep a as like a natural function, this is really useful. But for those of us who have kind of some internal threatening dialogue happening, it really, really like puts a *** in the chain of effective sleep.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Yeah, I can imagine. You're, you're basically in the state of hyper vigilance. And what I mean by that is like preparing for the threat to happen or preparing, you know, to get eaten by the saber tooth tiger is what our brain is preparing for. When in reality, it's struggling with the thought of maybe your partner being out with somebody else or you know, having that fear or anxiety that maybe, you know, you won't be

chosen or that you'll be left or you'll be replaced So, I mean, what, what do you do in this situation? How do you mitigate that and, and try to calm that arousal system down?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah. That's like kind of the pivotal question for many people who come to me looking for sleep treatment. Once we get their circadian rhythm and their sleep drive all aligned, it's like, but what do I do about all of this cognitive arousal that's happening? And it's physical too, like, like you lay in your bed and you can feel your body tensing up, right?

This could be whether it's related to those like jealousy thoughts or fear thoughts or it could be, I'm so freaking frustrated that I'm not asleep right now, like it's arousal related to the threat of not sleeping. You get so pissed that you're having insomnia that your whole body and mind goes into hyper arousal. So, what do we do about this? Well, there's, there's one primary thing that we do which is we have to disrupt the arousal conditioning.

And what I mean by that, I know. Interesting fun. What I mean by that is that when we spend lots of time, let's say in our bed or in our bedroom experiencing cognitive and physiological hyper arousal, our brain begins to associate the two similar to, are you an office fan?

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

I feel like you are I have seen every single episode. So that is a very diplomatic answer. But I think as I get older, I am enjoying the office as I age. I think it's kind of like a aging thing for me. But, yeah. Yeah.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach, Savannah Hipes, LCSW

So what's your example for office fans there?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

You know, there's a clip where Jim is training Dwight to want a mint. Every time he restarts his computer in the little ding sounds, he offers him a mint and Dwight's brain connects the two things and eventually Jim restarts his computer and the ding sounds and he doesn't offer him a mint. And Dwight expects a mint without realizing why he was expecting a mint and his mouth like gets all weird.

He's like, wait a minute, like my mouth is gross. I, I really feel like I need something minty right now, but he has no understanding of why he would be feeling that way. His brain created a conditioned response. Originally, this is like, Doctor Pavlov and his dogs in the bell, if any of you have heard of that, that research. So, but I like the office example.

It's more fun. The same exact thing happens with your, your arousal in your bedroom if you are in your bed and you're having frustrated thoughts about not sleeping or fearful thoughts about your partner, about your relationship, about your life, about your future, that could go on and on. If your body is feeling tense. If you're struggling, if you're frustrated, your brain associates that with your bed because you're doing it in your bed.

Which sucks because most people don't get a break to think about things until they finally, like, are done with their day and they lay down in bed and that's when all the fears come up. Like, they finally have a moment and that's when their brain lets all that stuff come up. So it's in their bed. What we do to counteract this is that anytime you're feeling that arousal or having all those fear thoughts, you get out of your bed and you go somewhere else to do it.

Which sounds really weird like you're telling, I can't sleep, but you're telling me to like get up. So I won't be able to sleep even more. Yes, I want to recondition your bed so that when you go into your room, when you start to get ready for bed and you see your bed, I want your brain to say, oh my. Yeah, that's where I go and I feel relaxed. That's where I sleep. Oh Yeah, I know that place.

Whereas right now you probably go into your bed and you get in your brain goes. Oh Yeah. This is where we do all of our planning for the next day. This is how we strategize how we're going to keep our partner happy. This is where we, you know, blank, blank blank and your brain literally induces a state of arousal because of that response.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

So you're so you're making a new association.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Exactly. Is that a term that you use a lot? You see, that seems like a heavy term for you.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Now, I don't know. I, I just thought of it on the spot.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Ok. You said it in such an important way. I was like, oh, that must be a thing. She does a lot.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

I'm just confident. I love it. So, by making this new association of like separating. Ok, my bed is only for sleep and I need to have these anxious arousal stimulation in a different location. I can imagine that can go on for like hours for someone like really, really struggling with an intense plethora of emotions.

So during that time, I can imagine they kind of feel like gosh, this is never ending. I'm, I'm not getting more sleepy, I'm not getting more tired and setting myself up for bed. So, so how do they, how do you help them get to that point where they can have that worry time somewhere else and then transition back to bed?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

That's where the idea of the sleep drive comes in, which is that actually the longer you stay up, like it's most likely the better you will sleep the next night. I don't say that to encourage people to always stay up very late because if it's a regular thing, it's not really gonna work, you're just gonna get sleep deprived. But during, during like the two weeks that we're like going hard on this during treatment, you're gonna be more tired for those fir first couple of days.

Like you might feel a little bit more sleep deprived than you even had been coming in. But we do it with the knowledge that your sleep drive is building and it's likely building where we need it to be because you might have been compensating for your fatigue by napping or by sleeping in on the weekends. and or by using caffeine, which actually depletes the chemical on your brain that builds your sleep drive.

So if you're doing all that stuff, your sleep drive is lower and we want it to be nice and high. We want you to be real freaking tired by the time it's nighttime. So I'm like, I know this is miserable to like have to get up and get out of bed because you're experiencing this arousal, have faith that this investment that you're doing right now going to another room, practicing relaxation exercises, decreasing that arousal, the time that you spend doing that is

building your sleep drive for your future night of sleep and it's quick, it's not months and months of this. It's like two weeks usually and then things change pretty quick.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Love that love fast results. Are there specific relaxation activities that you recommend to do during that time while the sleep drive is building? I I can imagine like if someone really loves playing video games or watching movies, I imagine that's kind of stimulating and not really helpful to, to do that relaxation. So, what do you recommend?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of people are like, oh, good. I wanna go do something fun since I have to be up, which is great. You know, I want you to enjoy your time, but at the same time, if it's gonna stimulate you, it's gonna go against what we're doing. So I usually tell people to do something that's super boring. Like go over your bills or like you know, or like do a Sudoku read the dictionary like a puzzle, like something that is just not even gonna hold your attention so that your brain is

like, OK, we're like, oh really tired, like you'll get, you'll get sleepier. Additionally, for relaxation, I really teach people how to induce relaxation. Not a lot of people have the idea that relaxation is like listening to a nice song or thinking positive thoughts or like laying down and resting. And colloquially, those can be forms of relaxation.

But clinically in terms of like, the, the relaxation response is an experience and a phrase actually termed by a cardiologist who was like, we're not just feeling good here, like we're inducing a response that changes your internal physiology. So when you breathe and you breathe really slow and you breathe really low into your diaphragm, not in your chest, not in your upper stomach, but really low into your diaphragm that induces a physiological change.

So even if you spend, you know, five minutes a day breathing, like pausing and breathing really deeply into your abdomen and really like as slow really as you can, that changes your heart rate, your breathing and it induces a sense of relaxation in your body. It may not do it immediately.

It takes some practice, but it's different from just like feeling nice, like we're not breathing to feel nice. We're not listening to a song to feel nice. Like we're actually, it's a physiological process that's happening. So I do that with people and teach them how to do it at home.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I recently took like a tai chi class where breathing and movement is really in Unis and so they, they spent like probably 45 minutes talking about the breathing and having us work on that exercise rather than any kind of movement. And we're, we're talking about like, how important, you know, getting the certain chemicals, is it like oxygen and carb? I, I have no idea what the chemicals are when you breathe in, when you breathe out.

But they were talking about how important it is to breathe in, through the nose and then also out through the nose rather than the mouth for that extra boost of relaxation, lowering the blood pressure, et cetera. So what you're saying is making a lot of sense for, like, physiologically inducing a state of relaxation. Yeah.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah. Absolutely. So, I know it's like a lot of information, but I'd love to talk more about, like, actually for people who are practicing non monogamy, like, what does this all mean for them be my guest? Cool. So, I was thinking, and you and I kind of talked ahead of time about, like, ideas of how, how this really plays out. and obviously, one thing that we already mentioned is like the, the thoughts that come up at night, that's a really important piece here that everybody has

anxious thoughts or many people do. But explicitly for people who are practicing non monogamy. If their partner is not with them at bedtime, they're gonna be having a lot of fears during that time. And it's really important for them to get out of bed and address those fears, whether it's writing them down or doing the relaxation.

Like, don't just let it sit in your bed with you. I think that's a really important piece, but there's also like the times you have a fight with your partner and you're laying in bed next to them, like you guys know that feeling when you're freaking mad and your bed partner is there and you're like, I can't even stand that.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

You're a foot for me and you can feel your whole body tense and you're, you've got all these thoughts racing through your head. You're wanting close connection most likely. But you're, you're mad and you're staying in that and you can't relax. So, talk more about that.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah. Well, you're training your brain to expect that you're gonna feel that way in your bed. Like, if you stay in your bed while you're doing that. So, I don't know, from the relational side if it's a, if it's appropriate, but from the sleep side, I would say get out of your bed and go somewhere else until you're more calm. And if you need to wake your partner up and say we're gonna deal with this right now like cause I need to sleep then great.

I don't know if, I don't know if that's recommended or not from the relational side but whatever you gotta do to not be in your bed, experiencing that stress, like experience it, we can't force our distress away. It's gonna be there. It just needs to be there while our body is in a different place.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

That makes a lot of sense. I'm also thinking about, you know, you mentioned very briefly talking about nightmares earlier on in our talk. How do you help someone deal with nightmares? You know, they're having like maybe very vivid visualizations of like these excruciating painful experiences while trying to navigate their own worthiness or jealousy, thinking about, you know, their partner being with somebody else. How do you help people with nightmares?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah, I think nightmares are really extremely painful. and they can impact sleep so much to the point that sometimes people, people will avoid trying to go to sleep. They'll just be like, I'm just gonna stay up or they'll sleep with all the lights on. There's a lot of things they'll do to try and not experience a nightmare because it's so excruciating.

So I think this is a, a really important piece for people to be aware of that. There, there are effective treatments for nightmares as well that aren't just taking a medication specifically what I do. So I'm also trained in C BT for nightmares and it includes one doing the relaxation that we talked about but doing it a real in a really practiced like explicit way, like at certain times, of the night.

And it also includes, this is kind of an interesting, oh, I have another example. Are you a Harry Potter fan? Yeah. Go ahead. Ok, Gabe. So, you know, I'm forgetting the name for it that when the thing that goes in the closet. Oh, a boggart. That's what it's bogg A RT A boggart. So basically it's like a magical thing that it forms to the shape of what you fear.

Like whoever is standing in front of it, it forms the shape of what you fear and the way to, to, to get rid of it or to get it under control is by reimagining it. The thing that you fear in a funny way. So like, if you're really afraid of in the, in the movie, you know, one character is really afraid of his, like, strict grandma who's like, very scary to him or no, I'm sorry, he's afraid of a, a professor who's very scary to him.

But he imagines the professor wearing his grandma's clothes to make it look funny and it, like, takes all the power away. Interestingly, we actually do this with nightmares. So we just, we have the person, you know, describe like, write out in thorough detail, the nightmare and then we rescript it. So we have them pick out like pain points and themes that are kind of connecting the dream or maybe connect to other nightmares.

They've had things like safety, you know, as a theme. Like if, if in most of the nightmares, safety is an issue or maybe it's power, maybe they feel powerless. We have them identify those themes and then change the nightmare in some way that changes those themes. So p it puts you back in power or it makes the situation humorous so that you no longer feel like your safety is in danger.

You just feel like laughing and you rewrite that and then you rehearse it in your mind before you go to bed before you do your relaxation exercises. And like crazily enough, it's so effective like t 2 to 3 weeks and it makes change.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

I know that works already without even having done it or telling someone to do that with their sleep. Because that's a huge basis of what accelerated resolution therapy has incorporated in it. You know, we use the bilateral stimulation to help them envision and experience the painful experience experience.

But then there's the part of rewriting that experience and visualizing it in a positive way. Or even if you know what would be helpful would be a more comical way rewriting it so that it does induce that state of relaxation. So I already know that works. That's an amazing idea for nightmares. I love that.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah, it's and it's, it's cool that I think that's a piece of multiple different kinds of therapy of like taking a narrative and rewriting it. So we've just been able to capitalize on that in a lot of different ways. Some other things that I kind of had written down that I wanted to mention that I thought were really would, would really relate to your audience.

Is the like scheduling of sleep because I'm imagining that if you're a person who has multiple partners, that's maybe more of your time that you're spending like connecting with that partner, create, maintaining and creating that relationship. Whether that's going on dates, whether that's making meals together, maintaining, you know, a home, whether that's like in time for intimacy, it's just more time.

And if you, i if you've carved out certain times of day for certain things and then you have to carve out an additional time for an additional partner. Where is that time gonna come from? Is your sleep gonna be the time that you give up for that? Especially that idea of like new relationship, energy. You're so excited about being in a new relationship.

You want to stay up late, you know, talking into the night and connecting. You want to a lot of people maybe have most availability for intimate encounters, maybe late at night and you're excited about that. So you're like, I don't need to sleep. You know, I can, I can stay up until 2 a.m. and then go to work the next day, right? Like because it's so freaking exciting and that is part of the arousal.

Like you're even though it's not a threat, it's not a threatening arousal. It's an enjoyable arousal, but it's still pulling the emergency brake on your sleep to keep you awake and that's really gonna deplete you over time. So, something I think might relate to your listeners a lot is how do we still make time for the things that we care about? But keep in mind that we have to be strategic about it if we wanna maintain a healthy sleep schedule, because we know that insomnia also

affects depression. It makes anxiety worse, it makes eating disorders worse. I actually was reading some studies that insomnia is explicitly related to erectile dysfunction. So I know like, so if you're staying up late. If you're sacrificing your sleep, to have these connecting experiences with your partners, it actually might end up inhibiting your intimate experiences because you're not able to prioritize your sleep. Like it's a horrible circle.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

It sounds like working on your sleep can benefit so many different areas of your life that you didn't even think about because like that makes total sense from what you're saying. You know, if we're in the state of like a sleep deficit and not giving our body what needs to function properly.

That makes sense why other things in our body would start shutting down ie arousal for sexual pleasure, our brain cognitive function would start to shut down after, you know, so much sleep deficit. So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, exactly.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Like if you imagine being, being jealous or being anxious or being afraid related to your relationship, if you think about the moments you have felt that way. Is it worse when you're tired? Like if it is, then maybe sleep should be something that we prioritize a as a method of helping you work through your anxieties and your difficult thoughts.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Yeah, I can totally see sleep being a big concern specifically with this population, especially like you mentioned, trying to balance different schedules. Now, maybe your sex schedule is off which you might start depleting from your sleep. So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yeah. So it's just like, how do we ha it's just being intentional, kind of knowing, knowing yourself, knowing the sleep that you need, knowing that you want to like, have intimate time and have connecting time, whether that's during the day or at night. But saying, OK, how can I make sure that I schedule it in a way that I'm still prioritizing my sleep and getting what I need so that my new relationship, energy doesn't end up leading to lots of anxiety.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Like once the high goes down, you know, and thank you so much for mentioning that because I, I don't think we think about how sleep can be so encompassed and intertwined with new relationship, energy. And then also in a new relationship, you're probably very excited. If, you know, it's a sexual relationship, you're probably really excited to have sex. But if you are depriving your body of what it needs, you're gonna be really disappointed when it's not functioning properly.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

And just lead to more frustration and, you know, ss self probably hatred and anxiety and depression and, and then that's gonna make you sleep even less and it all just, you know, goes together.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Yeah. What are some other important things for us to touch on when it comes to sleep and no monogamy, maybe it's something to be aware of too.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

And this kind of goes into the, the ed conversation. But when, when you are getting less sleep, your testosterone actually decreases. testosterone is one of your body's chemicals are part of your circadian rhythm and what tells you what time of day it is and when to be tired. So things like melatonin estrogen testosterone, those are all released during certain times of day and testosterone is usually released. when you first go to sleep, that's when it kind of primarily is

being released and it hits a peak when you hit your first rem cycle of sleep. And that's like somewhere around 90 to h to 100 and 20 minutes into your sleep, that that happens. So if you're delaying that sleep by multiple hours, you're really delaying that testosterone release and over time, it actually just goes down.

So even just medically like, that's something to keep in mind, especially for those of us who like sex is a big part of our relationship and the pleasure that we have in life.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

That makes a lot of sense. And I wonder how often like a general primary care physician would keep that in mind as sleep being a big impact or a a possible part of why people are like struggling with their like sexual medical issues. I don't know if that's really asked about during intakes or really even talked about like this is kind of the first time I'm hearing about it from you.

So I I'm realizing how uneducated I am in that sense of like hearing about, oh, if you're having struggle with Ed or orgasm, you know, go see your medical provider, but no one ever mentions talking about how sleep might be impacting that. Wow.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

It really is frustrating that, that there, there's a lack of acknowledgment of sleep. And I think plenty of medical providers know that it's important but it, it, it seems frustratingly like an uncontrollable factor to a lot of people rather than something that can be effectively treated and manipulated. So I think for a lot of medical providers, it's like, well, if you're not sleeping well, what can I say?

Like, address your anxiety? Like they don't, they don't know, kind of the, the background of how. And this is also, I think we've researched sleep for a long time and there's still so many new things that we're learning, we've like barely scratched the surface even with all the research that we've done. So I think it's also kind of a new idea that it's not just our, you know, anxiety or our medical problems that affect our sleep.

It's actually our sleep that causes a lot of those problems as well. So we're, we're learning together, but I really would advocate for everyone to talk to their doctor about sleep, especially if you think you might be having a problem and like, don't be afraid to say no, this is important to me. I want to, I want to address it. cause it just kind of gets glazed over, I think in a lot of medical professions and even, you know, in therapy too, a lot of therapists are like, well, I don't

really know how to address that other than let's decrease your anxiety so you can sleep better. Which makes sense. But they just don't have the tools to, to know that there's an another way kind of like going at it from the backside of let the dress sleep first and that actually might kick start progress in a lot of other areas.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

That's why I'm so glad I have you to refer to. What would you say would be really important information for listeners to know any, anything that we haven't gotten to cover today because I know we could probably talk for hours about this topic and, and how it affects, you know, different populations.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach, Savannah Hipes, LCSW

But anything else that's really crucial for the audience to know, I think something that's important to consider is actually talking with your partners about this.

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

That's probably an important thing in, like, all aspects of, you know, therapeutic treatment and health. But explicitly for sleep. I mean, when I'm doing sleep treatment and I'm, I'm telling a person to get out of bed in the middle of the night and, like, go hang out in the kitchen and read the dictionary. Their partner is gonna be confused by that.

Their partner might also be like, excuse me, this is our time together. You need to be in bed like there's a lot of conflict that can come from that. So I really highly recommend that people talk with their partner and say, hey, I'm doing this thing like I'm trying to address my sleep, I'm making some of these temporary changes. I would like your support in that.

Like I want you, I want you to be aware of what's going on. And I would also love for you to help me like you don't tell me to come, you know, go to bed with you at 8 p.m. if I, if I know that I have to stay up or don't encourage me to sleep in with you on Saturday, like I, I need your help with that accountability. And I think specifically for people practicing non monogamy is that you're gonna be potentially sleeping in a lot of different physical environments.

So keeping in mind one, maintaining your sleep schedule, even when you're at a different physical location as much as possible, and also maybe keeping you routine like your bedtime routine if possible or taking things with you. maybe from your like primary sleeping location to wherever you're going to help your brain have that association of like this is the place where I sleep and I feel relaxed. If there's certain things you use at night, like an eye mask or you know, your

pillow that you like or whatever, bring, bring that stuff with you and try and keep as many variables the same as you can. Cause I think that communicating with your partner about that and then making that effort to keep those routines is really gonna encourage your brain to know what time of day it is when to make you tired. And what physical location does it feel safe for you to be tired in if that makes sense?

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Thanks so much for saying a piece on that because actually, that's something that I was wondering like, how do we approach our partner and have this conversation and talk about, you know, how to do this because it is going to change the way that people, you know, are interacting within the relationship with making this change to the sleep schedule. So I appreciate you touching on that. We have to wrap up, but this has been a super awesome conversation and I'm so glad that that, you

know, you got to spend time with me today and, and telling me all about this, I learned so much from you. And so I'm hoping our listeners also learn the same if people like what you have to say or super interested in learning more about the world of sleep or even eating disorders. Where can they find you?

Savannah Hipes, LCSW

Yes. I love chatting with people. So please call me. You can find me. My website is www dot Savannah hypes LCFW dot com. My last name is spelled H IP like Peter, E si know that's, it's a weird name. So Savannah hypes Celsius W dot com. My email is connect at Savannah hypes Celsius W dot com. My Facebook and Instagram are also Savannah hypes Celsius W so it's all pretty consistent.

Yeah, I would say start at my website, send me an email, send me a text or, or give me a call. I love talking about this. I feel excited when people want to learn more. So if, if you have an organization that wants to learn about this and they want to bring, bring me in, I would love it if your doctor needs to get it together regarding sleep and you want them to get some education. Like I love collaborating with my clients medical providers because it's so important for education on their

side, for education on my side, it's awesome. All around spreading education is like the best thing. So yes, ple please call me to just chit chat about that or for, for treatment or for any other, just like ideas. I can send you to other people who I know are good at this. If there's any reason why that I wouldn't work for you.

Paige Bond, CNM Coach

Awesome. Thank you so much. I'll make sure to have all of those links to your socials website, email in the show notes. So listeners, you can reach out to Savannah if you wanna learn more or even work with her again. Thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation listeners. Make sure to check out all the information out there that Savannah has about sleep and get back on track. Thank you for listening.