Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy and Psychedelic Integration
Summary
Stephanie shares her knowledge on the use of psychedelics, specifically Ketamine-assisted therapy to treat mental health concerns and how it may be useful in couples therapy.
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In this episode, you’ll learn about:
How Ketamine in therapy can treat depression and other mental health conditions.
What a typical Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy (KAP) session can look like
The potential benefits of KAP and how long it takes to see results
Who is eligible for KAP
How someone can start treatment with KAP
Stephanie Hansen, LMFT is based in San Diego, CA and specializes in working with addictions, eating disorders, anxiety, and relationship issues. Her therapeutic approach is holistic, client-centered, and strengths-based, encouraging personal growth, transformation, and empowerment. She emphasizes the mind-body connection and the therapeutic relationship with her clients. Stephanie is currently accepting new individual and couples clients for traditional talk therapy as well as Ketamine-assisted therapy (KAP).
Resources from this episode
How to Change Your Mind Netflix Series based on the book by Michael Pollan
All things Ketamine - Tim Ferriss
Noteworthy quotes from this episode:
“Use Ketamine first because it can be an introductory [psychedelic] and that might be all you need. It's accessible, it's super, super safe, it's legal and the effects are short lasting, but the after effects are long lasting. So it really is like a good primer for psychedelics.”
“The biggest side effect is really that enhanced mood that lasts up to two weeks after, even if you're just doing the one dose. Clients report just feeling more energy, feeling a sense of lightness, you know just more joy, understanding and peace.”
Connect with Stephanie
Website: https://www.stephaniehansenmft.com/
Connect with Paige Bond
Instagram: @paigebondcoaching
Facebook: @paigebondcoaching
Website: www.paigebond.com
Paige Bond hosts the Stubborn Love podcast, is a Licensed Marriage Therapist, and is a Polyamory Relationship Coach. Her mission is to help people-pleasing millennials navigate non-monogamy so they can tame their jealousy and love with ease. Her own journey from feeling lonely, insecure, and jealous to feeling empowered and reassured is what fuels her passion to help other people-pleasers to conquer jealousy and embrace love.
Free Jealousy Workbook:
http://www.paigebond.com/calm-the-chaos-jealousy-workbook-download
Free People Pleasing Workbook:
https://www.paigebond.com/people-pleasing-workbook
Disclaimer: This podcast and communication through our email are not meant to serve as professional advice or therapy. If you are in need of mental health support, you are encouraged to connect with a licensed mental health professional to receive the support needed.
Mental Health Resources:National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255SAMHSA’s National Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357)Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741 for free, 24/7 crisis counseling.
Intro music by Coma-Media on pixabay.com
! ATTENTION FLORIDA RESIDENTS INTERESTED IN KETAMINE ASSISTED THERAPY !
If you are interested in psychedelic therapy, Paige Bond offers KAP in her therapy practice. Book a free consultation to see if you are eligible.
Transcript
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Southern Love. I'm your host, Paige Bond. And today we have a very special guest that I'm super excited for. This is becoming a really big thing that's happening here in this day and age. So we have Stephanie Hansen who's a licensed marriage and family therapist and she's based in San Diego, California. She works with addictions, eating disorders, anxiety and relationship issues, but she's here to talk to us today about Ketamine
assisted therapy. So, Stephanie, before we dive into this big, big topic, Can you let listeners know about your journey on how you got started on being a therapist and then even specifically diving into Ketamine assisted therapy?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Sure. Yeah, I'll just, I guess I'll just kind of start from the beginning. You know, I had some, my journey to become, to become a therapist was really like convoluted. I had a really great experience when I was in my early teens with a wonderful therapist and I thought to myself, oh, like that's what I think I want to do. started college in that direction and quickly like switched course.
the fresh, my freshman year September 11th happened and I was going to school in Boston and there's like all this trauma around me and I just kind of a little bit freaked out. I was like, I don't know if I can handle this. So I ended up switching to marketing is my major thinking, like, what has to do with, psychology. and so that took me on a path of about, a dozen years post college where I was actually an event producer and event marketer.
So I did that, that was kind of my first career and it was really fun. I enjoyed it, but then I started getting that, that itch in my early thirties. Like, but what am I really doing is this fulfilling me? You know, and I started to get more and more, you know, antsy sitting in these meetings or I'm like, am I really helping or like doing something, you know, substantial with my life?
So that's when I remembered my original goal kind of circled back. And, you know, I was also going through a lot of things personally at the time and it just kind of like all of a sudden clicked. Oh, yes, like, remember what you're supposed to do. So, yeah, at 33 I quit that career, went back to grad school full time and had been licensed as a therapist since October 2020.
I always tell people I really didn't have a crystal ball but to go from events to therapy, right, at the time that I did was pretty, pretty forward thinking of me, given, given the situation. So I kind of really locked in to the industry to this field at a really wonderful time. So that's the story of me being a therapist. As far as c is concerned, or Ketamine is concerned and psychedelics has always been part of my journey, you know, and earlier on, you know, recreationally, but also
always knowing that like, there's something special to these substances, right? When I decided to go back to grad school for therapy, I immediately was like, and I'm gonna get my yoga certification to become a my 200 hour yoga teacher training. I ended up going down to Guatemala to do that, which was an amazing experience and also included some plant medicine ceremonies.
And that was really where I was like, oh, I understand like the therapeutic and the spiritual components of this and that kind of set me off into exploring plant me, plant medicines more to heal myself. So I started doing more. So I went down to Costa Rica and did a retreat and I was retreat and it's just like all these experiences, I was like more and more interested in bringing this part to therapy in America.
I honestly didn't really think about Ketamine in my mind at the time I was like, ketamine is like this drug that they use in the hospital, it feels very sterile. Like I don't really get it. You know, it's not a traditional psychedelic if you will. So I was really not interested at first. But then when I started to realize that it's really the only one that's even, that's legal and that I could start using. Now I decided to go to a training.
And then I started working with a company that I'm now working with called Journey Clinical and it just kind of spawned from there. And I'm so excited because now my view on Ketamine is so different because I really think it is like a magical drag. It provides so many things, you know. And it's, it's so different and I think more accessible than other traditional plant medicines. So, yeah, yeah.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
And that's what I was going to say. It sounds like the, the reason why Ketamine over any other kind of therapy is one since it's legal in the US. This is really the only accessible psychedelic type of therapy that you could even provide to people. So I, I love that aspect of it. You've had quite a journey from, you know, having this like long term, like really young goal of wanting to be a therapist and then kind of being thrown into a totally different realm of doing marketing and and
events and, you know, being around people. But I love when I talk to therapists who have that kind of career shift change of going into the therapy field. There's always kind of like this little existential kind of like lingering yearning happening of like what's my purpose or whatever. And, and I can tell that you're passionate about it. So I'm, I'm really excited that you're here in this field with us and what a time to get like back into it in 2020 when it's most needed.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
So glad you're here. Yeah, thanks. I know it was, it was quite a journey, but I feel like it all, you know, makes sense and, you know, came together at the right time, so for sure, for sure.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
So I guess like, where I would like to start is what the heck even is Ketamine. So you said it's a psychedelic but like what the heck like if, if I were a person on the street and you were trying to inform me, what would you say what Ketamine is?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah. So the way I refer to it as a dissociative anesthetic, right, which is like under the umbrella of psychedelics. but not necessarily what, what most people think of when they think of psychedelics, right? And that it kind of you know, it's, it's used widely like every day in hospitals all across the world as a surgical and procedural anesthetic, right? So they use high doses to kind of knock people out. Right. and it works really, really well and it's also super, super safe.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
So, like, when I go to surgery this is possibly what they're using to put me to sleep. Yeah.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Exactly. Right. And I, and a lot of people don't realize that, that it's been used, it was first synthesized in the sixties and was been FDA approved for that kind of anesthesia since the early seventies. And so it's actually like the who? I think it was 1985 they listed it as like like one of the most important medicines or like, you know, helpful, safe, widely used medicine.
So it's like all day long medical doctors have been using this for over 50 years. And it wasn't until probably like, like the eighties nineties when they really started understanding that it had this inherent antidepressant effect. They were getting, you know, they were starting to get that feedback from their clients, like they go in for surgery and all of a sudden they're reporting like that their depression is better, right?
So then they started doing studies. and the first clinical like double blind study came out in 2000 on this. So really psychiatrists have been using it as an adjunct to therapy or just a, a therapeutic component to their treatment with clients specifically with depression for over about 20 years now. Right. but it's just kind of, I think with the whole psychedelic re, you know, renaissance that has come probably in the past, you know, more like 10, 15 years.
It's getting much more, it's, it's getting a lot more talked about and it's like a lot more accessible. because Ketamine as a treatment, as a, as a therapeutic treatment rate, started out as being very expensive to do you know, kind of hard to find and it was always done. Traditionally, it was done, it was like you go in and you get the IV infusions, right?
And there's the doctor there and he's just kind of sitting there and you're just kind of by yourself for two hours having this experience and then you leave and there's no therapy component that's like inherently combined with it. So, and, but more recently, that's really like been the emphasis, right? Like we can't just like put them on, put, lay them down, give them a shot of ketamine and then like send them home and keep doing that. And it's, it's effective and it's a very
Western medicine, medicinal way, right to treat. But there's so much more involved and there's so much more what's the word I'm looking for potential when you're actually using it in combination with therapy. and utilize really utilizing the psychedelic component of the drug, right where it's like this traditional way of going to the clinics really kind of downplayed. That whole component is like, you know, kind of just like a, a necessary side effect.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Yeah. Yeah. So, ok. It, it sounds really cool how, things have changed over time and it seems like the medical community has, now kind of shifted their support in way of administering this in a way that is, actually more therapeutic, like, compounded therapeutic benefits. So I'm really curious like what happened to be able to make that shift happen?
Like, do you know like is there something something in the government medical field that like happened? That was like, all right, we gotta give these people therapy so like they get better results.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah. So one thing that happened, so all this time and even now using ketamine to treat mental health conditions is considered off label, meaning the FDA hasn't approved it specifically for those things. Like it's approved as an anesthetic but not as a treatment to depression, right? However, in 2019, a version of ketamine called S ketamine was approved by the FDA for treatment resistant depression specifically, which really kind of changed it to be more legitimate in the
field of mental health, right? Just by having that FDA approval and it was really a game changer. And I think that's when it really started sparked this idea of like, OK, this is like sanctioned now, at least in some form as being able to, to be helpful. So now we can kind of fully dive in and really, and I think that sparked a lot of different companies with a lot of
different models and, and administrative administrations, right to say, ok, like we can, we can feel more comfortable using it now and mental health for mental health.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Yeah. OK. So that makes a lot of sense. So my question is like, what is it like? Is there like a compound difference of like ketamine versus ketamine or like what's so special about S Ketamine? The FDA is like, all right guys. Cool.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
You know, I, I don't know, soup the super difference. I know that there's like, like if we're talking about Ketamine, right? There's like two components and ketamine is one component, but that's literally my limited knowledge of it. You know, if I had to guess there's some like political, you know, capitalistic reasons for this. But but yeah, so it comes in an intranasal spray called Spravato.
That's the brand name. And it can be used, but again, I think it just kind of opened up this idea of like, OK, Ketamine is legitimately helping people with depression. And then they, they're also studying a lot of other conditions, you know, anxiety, anorexia, O CD, substance use disorders, right? There's all being all being studied in, in my, you know, anecdotal experience is really helpful with all of those things it just has this like reputation of being for depression
because it really does have a rapidly acting antidepressant mood enhancing effect that not only that last, like, not only during the experience of taking a job but also up to two weeks after, right? And that, and if you redo the each journey it has a compounding effect, right?
That's why usually the treatment session, you know, you're usually looking at anywhere from like 4 to 6 to 12 like sessions all in kind of rapid succession to really enhance and like, you know, like create a, that the higher level of like the antidepressant effect.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
OK. So that makes sense. So do it more so that your results can multiply and you can feel better even more.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert, Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
So, yes, exactly.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
You, you taught me something. I didn't know that the skein is bravado. I've heard of Spravato as I've been talking to nurse practitioners, but I didn't know that that was the ketamine treatment. OK. So thank you for kind of clarifying that for me and, and now I can kind of like let people know like, hey, this is the way to go. So I, I wanna dive into like how it works.
But before we do that, can you talk about how this might compare to other psychedelic assisted therapies with, with plant medicine like PYO, you mentioned AA and, and such because I'm, I'm really interested to see like what the journey or the treatment looks like between these different ones.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah. So I will say there's a couple things that I, I like to talk about the difference in Ketamine versus other traditional psychedelics if you will. And that's really twofold, like one, it's a relatively short journey. As far as like the lasting effects of the experience, right? Can be anywhere from like 45 to 75 minutes, which is short versus if you're talking about doing a journey with sin or a or MD Ma, you're looking at 56 plus hours, right?
And so that's what, that's what I mean, when it's more accessible because it's a lot easier to come in for a two or three hour dosing session than to spend the whole day, you know. the other thing, you know, I mean, different psychedelics like act on different like neurotransmitters and receptors, like for instance, LSD and MD Ma really create heightened oxytocin levels, right? And that's where you get that like feeling of love, you know, so like Ketamine doesn't do that, but it
creates a dissociation effect from your body, right? So your mind is all of a sudden, not attached, really attached to your body. You're kind of like in a floating or dreamlike state. That is very specific to Ketamine. Yeah. So those are like the two, the two main differences, I would say.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Yeah, so I guess I have a follow up question now about that, like, is there, do you have different recommendations for different people who would be like a prime candidate for Ketamine assisted therapy? Versus one of those more like longer intense, harder to access therapies like silo and LSD and such? Like, are there better candidates for one than the other?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Now that I know I have like such like intimate experience with Ketamine? My thought is always like use cutting in first because it can be an introductory and that might be all you need. It's accessible, it's super, super safe. it's legal and it's like the effects are short lasting, but the, the an after effects are long lasting, right? So it really is like a good primer and then like, you know, and then further maybe explore other psychedelics is, is how I would approach it.
But, you know, formally I couldn't, wouldn't never recommend a client to use anything that's illegal, right? So, so therefore, academy, it would be our only option. You know, that being said, yeah, obviously there's movement in the legalities of other psychedelics, you know, Oregon, it is legal for for and the therapy now which is great MB A is close, be MD MA is close behind and you know, they have, they each, each substance tends to focus on different issue mental health
issues with their clinical trials for instance, MD MA is like, really, really heavily, studied it for a treatment of PTSD. Right. Ibogaine, for instance, has been studied a lot and treated for like, severe addiction issues. Right. So, so, you know, as things become more legal and available there, I, I think that there would be like, some shifts as far as, like, who would be a better candidate for which.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Yeah, that's so cool. and, and interesting and I'm really excited to see how the world just continuously keeps changing with the more research and trials that we do. And I'm just so excited to see how we get to help more and more people.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
I know it's such an exciting time right now in the field, it's like blows my mind and it's just like in the baby stages. Well, you know, the second we in the second stages but, you know, in this version of, of psycho or in the baby stages.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
So, ok, let's let's get down to it. What, what does it look like when someone is having a Ketamine assisted therapy session? Like can you walk us through what that looks like?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah. And I will say there's lots of different ways to go about it. So I'm gonna, and you know, for the sake of time, I'll just explain the model I use and what that looks and what that typically looks like. So I work with a company called journey clinical. They're based in New York, Colorado and California, I wanna say right now or the three states that they're in, but essentially they work on, on a collaborative model, which means they have therapists like myself as part of the
company, as like a contracted therapist. They have and they have a full medical team that which we call the prescribers. So they could be psychiatrists MP S that kind of thing. And we really work together with the patient. So typically how it would start is like I would, I would be having, I'd have a relationship with someone and decide, have conversations with them, decide that maybe Ketamine therapy would be something worth trying, right?
And so I refer them to journey clinical platform to get paired with a prescriber. They do a really thorough medical intake, making sure you know that they are an appropriate candidate, right? Something that I can't, can't do because of my scope of practice. And if approved, then they give them an initial subscription of two full doses. And, and then in which case, like we are, you know, the prescriber and I, you know, collaborate on, you know what that looks like moving forward as
far as what their their reactions are, et cetera. So then once they've had the intake I schedule, so at least one, sometimes two preparation sessions with them and we're just focused on the Ketamine experience Right. And it really depends on my relationship with them so far. I haven't actually done Ketamine with anyone who hasn't already been a client or haven't had a longstanding relationship with.
I'm starting beginning to start opening it up to people that it I haven't met with. And then in those instances, the preparation stage would be much longer. Right. probably like 34 or five sessions before we would actually go. But right now, yeah, it's 1 to 2 prep sessions and that their sessions are really focused on, what are your intentions?
What are you looking for out of this experience? I also talked to them a lot about, you know, expectations versus being open to what happens, right? because you never know how one person's gonna experience it versus another and then, and then I, you know, give them a really thorough breakdown of how the session's gonna go, what's gonna happen, you know, like what it, what it's gonna look like so that they're prepared and then we schedule the dosing session.
So that is typically for the first one, it usually schedule for three hours as we progress. It can be, you know, it can be shortened to probably about two hours would be like the shortest, session I would have.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
So they should expect to, you know, be sitting with you for a little bit and, you know, schedule out their day probably around this.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yes. Yes. Because it, for a dosing session that they can't drive the rest of the day. Right. like they really need, need to be taken care of and, and they shouldn't be really doing anything that, like, kind of takes their mind out of the experience because even when they're not, you know, they've come down from the initial experience, there's still like, you know, some lingering effects, right? so the dosing session looks like I've, I personally only do in person.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert, Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Although there is the option for remote, I was going to ask if you could administer and do this online.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
So that is a possibility for depending on the therapist and treatment team.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah, that is a possibility because the for the form of medicine that I use is sublingual lozenges and they get mailed by the pharmacy directly to the client. So they self administer them. And in terms of like doing remote work, they would just need to have a chaperone on site that I could see. and talk to. but I personally prefer in person. So one benefit of doing it remote is that clients are in their own house and they feel like good in their surroundings.
But I also like offer the option for to do like a house visit. So like I come into their home if they're open to that because I really think that the the in person component, especially for the first session or two is really important. So, it typically looks like the client is lying down in really comfortable clothes. the music, the music component is very, very critical. Right. So, we usually have a, yes. Yes. It's like, yeah.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
So we shouldn't be playing like, heavy metal or anything.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
No, no. The playlist that I create for my clients dosing sessions are very, intentional and a little bit tailored to the person and their intentions and, you know, it's all like, really, really specific. And so the first half an hour, 45 minutes is usually just again, just going over logistics, kind of checking in with how they feel. I usually do some kind of breath work or maybe even a little bit of like mindful yoga to, like, get them in their bodies, like, get them calmed down, you
know, relax their nervous system. and then they take the Ketamine which involves like putting a lozenge under their tongue and they just basically swishing the slider around for, you know, 10 to 15 minutes. Yeah, it's a long time. It's a long time and it doesn't taste great, you know, the medicine. so, yeah, so usually what I do during that time to kind of keep their mind, their mind focused is I read some sort of meditation and, or passage, there's like a set of quote unquote flight
instructions that I give them to kind of just set them in the mood for takeoff if you will. And then once they spit out the medicine, they usually, put on some eye mask and they have their headphones. I'm listening to the playlist along with them. but they're really, it's really an inward journey for the next, you know, anywhere from 30 to 60 to 75 minutes.
Yeah, and so that I'm there for them if they need anything, if they, you know, I'm there observing them writing anything that they say down. really just holding the space, during that time.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
So you're not necessarily like talking to them or like trying to process anything as it's happening.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
No, no, it's just me, you know, really creating that safe space for them too. Surrender to whatever they're experiencing, knowing that I'm there knowing that nothing, you know, bad can happen even if difficult things come up. Right. and that, you know, they're being well taken care of and it's a really intimate experience, right? to do that to like, sit with someone during, doing something like that.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Yeah. Have, you know, I, I'm sure this is probably a big fear of everyone. Like, what if something really difficult does come up during that inner journey? Like how as a therapist do you help them during that process while they're still, you know, under the effects of, of the Kennedy?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah. And it's really asking them like, what they need, you know, sometimes, sometimes it is a little bit of therapeutic touch. Right. Like a hand holding of a hand or, like some, pressing on their shoulders. Right. That can be really helpful and comforting and soothing. Also just reminding them that, like, you know, whatever is coming up is important for them to know.
Right. Or it wouldn't be showing up. Right. And so, you know, I think, yeah, everyone gets worried about, like, quote unquote bad trips. But I, I say there are no bad trips. There might be difficult ones, but again, like there's difficult ones are just as if not more important than the really pleasant ones.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
I like that. I love that.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah, but I would also say in general another reason why I think Ketamine is a great like introduction to psychedelics is because it's just a lot more subtle, right? especially in the sublingual form that we're doing it in obviously, if they did like intramuscular or I or intravenous, it would be heightened effects, right? And, but, but yes, I mean, difficult things come up, but usually it has the sense of like, oh, I understand, right?
Like pretty quickly in my experience with clients, they're like, oh, that was emotional and I get it now, you know, whatever the thing is, it kind of moves to being this, like, intellectualized idea to like really, like fully embody and understanding it on a molecular level if that makes sense.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Yeah, like you can feel it in your body, you feel it in your mind, you know, it in your unconscious, like it just, it possesses every cell in your body. Yeah. Beautiful. And so as they're, they're coming down from the medicine, like, can you walk us through what it looks like during like towards ending the session and such?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah, usually, you know, it's like a very slow process coming out, coming out, right? And everyone's a little bit different, but I like to give them plenty of time to journal or draw or like do some kind of you know, constant, like quiet contemplative portion like where they're just kind of reflecting on their experience before I immediately start, you know, going into it, right?
And then it's just usually like an initial, an initial processing of the experience. What happened? What did you notice? How did you feel, what came up any like big themes? Right? Usually there's like one big theme that that client can, can pinpoint, you know, like my most recent one, she said, oh, I realized that like, I cannot, I cannot control things, you know, that was her big insight, right? And it was just like, and it was like funny because like, you know, you talk about that
all the time and talk therapy, right? But to like, really get it, you know, it was just like, so powerful, you know, another one of my clients, I remember he was like his main takeaway was like all there is, is love, right? That's all all there is and that's all that matters, right? You know, so just like these really profound, you know, takeaways from just one session can be so yeah, incredible.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Wow. And you get to witness that. So how cool, I mean, this is why we do this work to see this type of growth and that is just so beautiful to be there along for that journey. So, you know, after they finish the session with you during that first dosing session, are there any side effects that they can expect after they, they eventually do go home for the day or when they're already home and after treatment, like, are there any like headaches or anything like that?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
It's, it's pretty minimal. in my practice with my clients and in my personal experiences with Ketamine, I haven't seen any adverse effects, which is pretty great. I do however, obviously, like I've talked, talked to other people who have can experience headaches. The the biggest, like I would say medical side effect is potential nausea.
And that's why with Journey Clinicals Protocol, they actually spit the medicine. So other people, other people swallow it. Like, you know, other factions of, you know, there's lots of different ways to do it and there's like whole chattering of communities that's like best practices, right? And everyone has their thoughts. but, yeah, so we set to, eliminate or, like, minimize that potential nausea.
but really, that's the biggest one. They're gonna feel a little losing and lightheaded, like, throughout the rest of the day, which is why we say don't drive or operate heavy machinery or, you know, have someone with, you don't try and, like, go out and run a marathon. Right. Right. after, but then again, like, I mean, the biggest side effect is really that enhanced mood that lasts like up to two weeks after, even if you're just doing the one dose, you know, and
clients report just feeling like more energy, feeling a sense, like a of lightness of like, you know, just more joy, understanding and, and peace, you know, just amazing.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Now, I, I mean, I think those side effects are definitely worth a journey to our own enlightenment. So this sounds pretty amazing. I wonder like, so you mentioned before, like sometimes one session is all they need, but sometimes maybe more like 246 or even 12 after, you know, that set amount of sessions, do you see that?
Like this needs to be continued upon like treatment wise for like a years long process to continue, you know, getting the great side effects of having the decreased depression, having, you know, more sense of purpose like or, or what do you, what do you say about that?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah. And again, it's different in factions. Like I haven't, in my experience so far I haven't worked with someone, who's needed it past, like, say, six sessions. I think that's the most I've done with any clients of mine. And it's been pretty successful that said, like I'm, you know, I just started doing this work relay about six months ago. So, so, you know, relatively new. what I understand is that especially people with severe depression, it does, it's, it's almost like the
same as you take an antidepressant pill each day. you, you're gonna want regular maintenance, right? So some say like once after the initial like protocol, you might do like a monthly session or a quarterly session or some people say just like if you're starting to feel, you know, if you're going into a depression, then come in for a session, right? To kind of like just make that a lot less severe, you know, so there's different ways to do that.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Ok. Kind of like a booster if like things seem to be going down the wrong path again.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. This is a great word. Cool.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
I like that. So you talked a little bit about like all the great things that can be done with Ketamine assisted therapy, you know, working on these different issues. I, I wondered who are the people where they would not be great candidates for Ketamine assisted therapy? Like maybe ones on certain medications or ones with certain issues. Like, do you have any information on that?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah. and actually I'm glad you brought up medications because that's one thing I forgot to mention, it's also a huge benefit of ketamine versus other psychedelics is that you actually don't have to go off your psychotropic medications to u use ketamine. I know it's great. it's great because personally I did, you know, have to go off of my antidepressant in order to experience I was because I can, you know, have severe negative effects.
And that was really a difficult decision for me and obviously it was a sacrifice I made. And yeah, and you know, so that's a huge, that can be a huge barrier for people when, when using psychedelics. But that's another great thing about ketamine is that you can, it's totally safe. And OK to be on antidepressants. So they're kind of psychotropic medicine medicine while using this.
But yes, so some contraindications, right? So uncontrolled like hypertension, high blood pressure, right? Is one because it does, it does, it can cause like an elevated heart rate. That's why we do, we do monitor vitals before and after just to make sure that they're in a healthy range. Actually glaucoma is one. I don't really under understand particularly why, but I know of a client who wasn't a kid who I thought would be a great candidate but was not approved in their medical
intake because of glaucoma. The big, the biggest kind of indication is if there is, if there's either a potential like a history in a family history or a personal history of any kind of conditions with psychosis because really any like, you know, consciousness altering substance has the potential to send someone into psychosis.
So, so yeah, if they have a family history or personal history, that's immediately, unfortunately, a huge barrier. and then the other big one is just if they're, you know, there are some people who get addicted to Ketamine. so if they're like an inactive, the ketamine use disorder that's obviously can counteract the effects.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Definitely would. It's like here's your medicine but you're already addicted to it. So, yeah, I can see why that wouldn't work.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah. Yeah. So, those are the major ones.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Now, I, I know that you're a licensed marriage and family therapist and there's been some, I, I've seen it in like, the news or articles about some therapists trying to use this with couples therapy and I'm like, how the heck does that happen? Do they both take a dosing at the same time? Do they both go on this journey together? Like, what is like, do you know anything about couples assisted ketamine therapy?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
I do know a little bit because it's something that I'm interested in getting involved with, like, my projection where I'm going with. This is really, I see it as like group and couple work, right? I've done a couple group sessions and there's, they're so amazing, you know, just being able to have other people experience the same thing with you and like, relate to what's going on and it's just like, it just enhances, in my opinion, the effects like tenfold if you can do it in a safe
group. And that also goes for couples, right? And so there are people do currently doing couples retreats or just or just like couples ketamine therapy and it can look like a couple of different ways. But typically they'll do like a lower dose of ketamine like a what they call a psychotic dose. So it's not like main major psych psychedelic, like transpersonal states, but you're getting that like dream, like, like state, you're getting a little dissociation and feeling altered,
usually do like a low dose ketamine to get the session together. And then typically they'll like, one person will sit with one partner will sit with the other partner while they do a high dose and vice versa, right? So you have that experience of like witnessing them. And, you know, it really has been shown to, to really be able to break up those blocks that, that couples tend to have, you know, the things that they're stuck on just like we get stuck in our own patterns, right?
That we can't break through. Obviously, couples do too, right? They get in their interactional patterns and they can't see the other side really. Like, you know, I often use the analogy of like a ski slope or, or snow globe when I talk to clients about how it works, right? It's like those like those like ingrained pathways that neural pathways that we have, right?
That are so just like sh such shortcuts to these ongoing patterns that we want to break. Well, like the Ketamine allows like different neural networks to talk to one another and essentially just shakes it up enough. So that like there's, there's grooves, like just kind of get blanketed out again a little bit. Obviously, you can still find them if you dig deep enough.
because that is like the beginning of the work, right? Is the is the medicine session. It's really like what, what people do with it after that makes the difference, the jumpstart, right? But they have the ability to kind of see their problems in a different way and relate to one another. The other thing that kinda, I mean, isn't really talked about as being an pathogen, right?
Because MD Ma and LSD and all these other ones like, you know, because they have that create that, that enhanced Oxytocin are talked about being the love drug if you will. But like Ketamine has that, that too. and so like being in being able to like, feel that like intense empathy for your partner by doing it together, it can just like really kind of create a new way of being where again, they can make the work, the couple's work after where they're
utilizing that kind of extra neuroplasticity that they're getting from the drug and that enhanced empathy to really like make a difference and, and change their behavior.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Just wow. This, this really does sound like an amazing type of treatment where you get to do so much internal work and bringing things to light and awareness to be able to like, help you move through life better and improve like so many different areas. Like it's just this, this sounds amazing.
Is there anything in particular that like you would want people to know about ketamine assisted therapy? Either ones who are interested in it or ones who have no idea what it is like, something that you would want the listeners to know about this that we haven't dug into today.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
I mean, I think I've touched on a lot. I would just say I cannot under emphasize the importance for a solid therapeutic relationship. So I wouldn't, you know, if you're interested in using Ketamine, like there are some companies right now that are doing mail order Ketamine where that you can literally sign up with them and have like a 15 minute consult with the doctor and they'll just mail you the Ketamine and say, do it on your own.
Right. Like, like that is really, really dangerous and, like, you know, something that, you know, a lot of us doing the therapeutic work are, are extremely concerned about. Right. Going back to, you know, the idea of, like, set and setting, right. Being in the right mindset, and having a safe, comfortable setting or like, you know, it's like psychedelics 101, right?
And it, it, it includes kind of mean too, right? The pre the work that you do to develop the relationship. But the therapist, the work that we do to really create the space, you know, and it's like, it involves all your senses and not only is the music, so, so more important but the mells, right? The feel like the lighting, like the atmosphere, like any, you know, the blankets imposing, like it's all super intentional and so to just be, you know, just get some shipped to you and then
just they do it in your backyard, like you're gonna have an experience, but like there's so many things that could go wrong and then you're kind of left without any word enlightment, right? So, so yeah, I would say if you're interested in it, find a therapist who knows what they're doing and has a relationship with a prescriber that can do the collaborative model where it really is a treatment versus just like a one off.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Yeah. and I'm glad you emphasized that because it, it sounds like there are some companies out there who don't really prioritize patient treatment results or even a patient safety. So thank you for like ending us on that note. I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. I've enjoyed this conversation, conversation. I've learned so much from you and I just like now I just want to just like do more research, read more books.
Before we kind of like go into wrapping up, are there any particular books that you recommend for people interested in any kind of psychedelic treatment or even documentaries or podcasts that could be also like another introduction to this world of psychedelic?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah, I mean, I go back to the tried and true Michael Paul and how to change your mind, right? I mean, it was a huge sensation for a reason and I think the book, you know, they have a Netflix series on it as well. That's also informational. So, yeah, I think I, I think those are great options. Tim Ferris is like a huge proponent of psychedelics and he has a bunch of people on his podcast. He has like a three hour podcast with one of the fathers of Ketamine medicine. that's really, really
informative again, that goes like in deep into all of it. But he's, he's interviewed quite a few people who are doing psychedelic research or, you know, administrating, you know, therapies and stuff like that. So that's another really great resource.
Maps is an excellent resource versus the multidisciplinary association of Psychedelic studies. They're the ones doing the MD MA clinical trials, but they have a ton of resources on their website that would be good to check out.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert, Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Yeah, those are some, some places to start, I would say cool, very good resources love that.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
So if anyone's listening, I'll make sure to link those things into the show notes so you can just click on them and go for it. So Stephanie, as we're wrapping up here and people like are really connecting with what you're saying or like just interested in learning more about you about your practice. Like how can they get in touch with you?
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert, Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Like where can they find you right now?
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
They can go to my website. It's just Stephanie Hanson MFT dot com. They can find me there, reach out to me there. I am as I mentioned on Journey Clinical. So you can also find me through that if you're in California, definitely reach out through journey clinical. If that's something specifically that you're interested in or you can find me.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
Awesome. Very cool. Well, again, thank you for this show today. I've learned so much and I'm sure our listeners just got an ear full of so much knowledge which I love. So, thanks for your time.
Stephanie Hansen, KAP Therapist
Thank you so much. It was lovely to be here.
Paige Bond, Relationship Expert
You're welcome. All right listeners, I will have all the show note links in the podcast description. So until next time, catch you on the next episode.
